Author Topic: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?  (Read 1837 times)

Offline zuoom

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[MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« on: October 15, 2007, 07:34:19 AM »
Huge one-day drops less likely, but Credit Crunch shows what panic can do
 
ANALYSIS
By John W. Schoen
Senior Producer
MSNBC
Updated: 7:07 p.m. ET Oct. 14, 2007

   
John W. Schoen
Senior Producer
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For most of today's investors, the stock market collapse of Oct. 19, 1987, was a defining moment — the biggest financial crisis in memory and a stern reminder about the nature of investment risk.

On that Black Monday 20 years ago, the Dow Jones industrial average dropped a stomach-churning 508 points or 23 percent — the equivalent of 3,200 points for today's high-flying Dow. It was the second-biggest drop ever for the market, eclipsed only by the war-related Panic of 1914.

While the causes are still debated, the biggest question remains: Could it happen again?

For a quick answer, it is instructive to compare the crash of '87 with the credit crunch that swept through financial markets in August, challenging an untested Federeral Reserve Chairman Ben Bernanke much as his predecessor Alan Greenspan was tested two decades ago.

The credit crunch roil financial markets and depressed stock prices briefly, although this year's event played out largely behind closed doors in the murkier waters of the credit market. The crunch of '07 underscored the fact that as long as investment decisions are made by human beings, financial markets will remain vulnerable to future selloffs fueled by runaway emotions. But the stock market today is very different than it was 25 years ago; the odds have been sharply reduced that we will see a a replay of the crash of '87.

Black Monday
While most recollections of the 1987 crash focus on Oct. 19 the slide was well under way when Black Monday rolled around. In fact, the seeds of the crash had been sown years before.


Opinion: What we’ve learned
After a decade of economic stagnation in the 1970s sent stocks trading in a sawtooth pattern — and sent many investors fleeing the market — the bulls returned in full force in 1982 after the news sank in that war on inflation finally had been won. With the bulls once again in charge, the market began one of the longest and strongest advances in history, tripling the Dow over the next five years.

The 1980s saw individual investors pour money into the stock market through mutual funds and the rapid expansion of 401(k) retirement plans. By 1989 some 32 percent of U.S. households owned stocks, up from 19 percent just six years earlier, according to the Investment Company Institute.

Institutional investors were also piling into stocks. Private investment firms, relying on research that purported to show that “high yield” debt (aka junk bonds) weren’t as risky as market prices reflected, generated a multibillion-dollar wave of leveraged buyouts paid for with freshly printed paper. All that money had to go somewhere, and much of it ended up pushing stock prices to new highs.

The party began to unravel in the summer of 1987, when the Dow hit an interim high of 2,722 on Aug. 25 and then began to slump. At first, the decline looked like a routine pullback; the Dow began bounceed back a bit in September after an 8 percent decline. To many, it looked like stocks were just taking a breather after years of rapid advance.  But by early October, the downdraft was back — and gaining speed. In the four trading days preceding Black Monday, the Dow dropped 10.4 percent.

Economists and financial analysts have attributed the decline to a number of causes. Worries about inflation and a weakening dollar had pushed interest rates higher, making the safe haven of Treasury bonds more appealing. Congress was debating raising taxes on capital gains from stock investments. Fresh data in mid-October showed the U.S. trade deficit widening. Though most of the data pointed to continued strength in the U.S. economy, some analysts had been warning clients that stocks looked “overvalued.”

After a weekend of mulling all of this over, Wall Street reported to work on a mild, summery day in lower Manhattan — and started selling. After first, the decline was fairly orderly. But as the day wore on, computerized sell programs — set to bail out of stocks en masse at preset levels — overwhelmed the trading system, which still relied heavily on human beings matching buy and sell orders. Prices posted on the Quotron terminals of the day plunged from one trade to the next. By day's end, more than 600 million shares made it through the system — more than triple normal levels. But many more never made it. That erratic trading — including the periodic "seizing up" of some of the 30 stocks in the Dow — contributed to the steep drop in prices recorded at the close.

When the dust settled, and traders, analysts and investors saw what had happened, many returned the next day believing the sell-off was overdone. That widespread assessment — coupled with a highly visible announcement by the Fed that it stood ready to flood the system with money to put the fire out — touched off a huge buying spree on heavy volume. Over the next two days, the stock market recouped more than half of Monday’s losses. The panic appeared to have ended as quickly as it began.

The uncertainty bogeyman
Contrast that with the financial panic that swept the credit markets this summer. The root causes of what would become the credit crunch of '07 had been widely reported well before the panic hit, including the rise in risky subprime lending backed by complex securities valued primarily by computer, not market pricing. A boom in mega-buyouts backed by cheap money helped fuel what amounted to a credit bubble. One major danger signal that investors were ignoring risk and money was flowing too freely — that interest rates on risky bonds were not much higher than much safer Treasuries —  had been flashing red for months.
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  Tales from The Crash

  Discuss: Where were you on Black Monday?
Could it happen again?
Storm clouds gathered before 'Black Monday'
Opinion: What we’ve learned
But the murky world of credit derivatives and computer valuation models played out laregely behind the closed doors of hedge funds, big investments firms and other institutions. Unlike the crash of '87 — when the sickening slide played out publicly — the credit crunch of ’07 was a members-only event. With much of the questionable debt held by unregulated hedge funds, even the Federal Reserve had only anecdotal information, including conversations with the heads of top financial institutions, to guide it.

That’s why the credit crunch played out in slow motion. Without the transparency of a public  market, no one could be sure where the fire was burning — or how badly. As it did in 1987, the Fed fire brigade responded this year by flooding the market with money until the smoke began to subside. Only in the past few weeks, as banks and brokerages have fessed up to huge losses in quarterly earnings reports — have investors been offered a glimpse of how bad the damage was. With a clearer picture of the extent of the losses, financial markets have begun to gain confidence that the worst is over.

Could it happen again?
In every meltdown, market players adjust to try to prevent a repeat. Since 1987, massive investments in technology and electronic trading systems have vastly expanded the stock market's capacity. Exchange-managed “circuit breakers” — desigend to shut down trading when certain thresholds are reached — have averted potential one-day plunges in stock prices. The '80s-era, computer-driven trading models — once thought to be so foolproof they were referred to as “portfolio insurance” — were long ago rewritten to avert another rush to the exits in the event of a panic.

The credit crunch of 2007 is still unwinding, but much of the easy-money lending that fueled the bubble has already receded. Some of the megamergers announced before the bubble burst have been quietly shelved.  Mortgage standards have tightened sharply, and state and federal regulators are prosecuting cases of lending and appraisal fraud. But it remains to be seen whether the now-burst housing bubble — the legacy of easy-money mortgage lending since 2001 — will create a wider drag on the economy.

While it’s unlikely that either the stock market or the credit markets will replay the scripts that led to their collapses, nothing can rule out the possibility of future panics. The stage for both events was set by hubris as the wizards of Wall Street thought they had somehow outsmarted the risks that had reined in their forebears. Investors — both individuals and institutional money managers — willingly went along for the ride. Once that confidence began to unwind, the resulting panics fed on themselves, fueled by fear.

So as long as investment decisions are ultimately made by human beings – governed by those primal emotions of fear and greed — there’s little chance that financial markets can be insulated from future panic-driven selloffs.

via : MSNBC

drdre69

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #1 on: October 15, 2007, 11:23:08 AM »
my answer to this would be: Possible, but given that Asia is the new powerhouse shoring up the world's economy, probably not. The thing we have to be scared of is the possible stagflation arising from when the fallout from the sub-prime really hits home in 2-3 years time.

Offline zuoom

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #2 on: October 15, 2007, 11:55:56 AM »
ya, generally speaking. that's the foreseeable trend.

also, there probably wouldn't be a crazy drop like in 87, 97. it would probably be a series of corrections spread over a couple of years.

Offline Vorsprung durch Technik

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #3 on: October 16, 2007, 04:48:58 AM »
probably due to global climate situation, give it another 4 years time for another downturn. accelerated if affected by china or india.

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Offline Vorsprung durch Technik

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #4 on: October 16, 2007, 09:14:48 AM »
petrol prices are set for another increase. global crude prices hit a high of 87 per barrel. damn...

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #5 on: October 16, 2007, 09:38:54 AM »
Oil at record high of above US$86 in Asia
Posted: 16 October 2007 0937 hrs

SINGAPORE - Oil traded at a record high of US$86.29 a barrel in Asia on Tuesday amid mounting tension between Turkey and Kurdish rebels in Iraq.

In early morning trade, New York's main oil futures contract, light sweet crude for delivery in November, was 16 cents higher than the US$86.13 reached in late New York trades on Monday.

The price of Brent North Sea crude was not immediately available but the contract had also surged earlier in London trade, settling up US$2.20 at a record US$82.75 a barrel.

Brent's previous record was US$81.05 per barrel reached late last month, while New York crude has now surpassed the former all-time peak of US$84.10 reached during intra-day trade last month.

"The tensions on the Turkish-Iraqi border have really pushed the price up," said Adrian Bingham-Walker at CMC Markets.

Turkey moved a step closer Monday to a possible incursion into northern Iraq as the government sought parliament's approval for military action against Kurdish rebel bases despite US opposition.

The army said at the weekend that it had shelled Iraqi territory after PKK rebels attacked a Turkish military outpost with rockets and gunfire from across the border.

via : http://www.channelnewsasia.com/stories/afp_asiapacific_business/view/305891/1/.html

Offline zuoom

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #6 on: October 19, 2007, 04:19:08 AM »
via : http://sg.biz.yahoo.com/071019/3/4bz47.html

Quote
Friday October 19, 10:29 AM
Oil near new $90 high as dollar sinks, funds buy
By Felicia Loo

SINGAPORE (Reuters) - Oil held firm within sight of its new $90 high on Friday as another slump in the U.S. dollar to a record low and rising fears over pre-winter fuel stocks lent support to an over 13 percent surge in under two weeks.

U.S. light crude for the soon-to-expire November contract ticked up 5 cents to $89.52 a barrel by 0049 GMT, following a hefty gain of $2.07 a barrel on Thursday's close.

The contract touched $90.02 in after-hours trade, the sixth record high in as many trading sessions in a nearly unbroken bull run fuelled by an infusion of fund money seeking to avoid markets battered by the global credit crunch.

The dollar fell to a new record low against the euro on surprisingly weak U.S. job market and manufacturing data, plus a one-third fall in earnings from the No. 2 U.S. bank, tipping expectations toward another interest rate cut.

"The dollar weakened further spurring some investment into oil as a hedge against dollar weakness," said David Moore, commodity strategist from the Commonwealth Bank of Australia.

"And there are still concerns that oil market conditions will remain tight over the northern winter."

The rally in oil and other commodities from below $70 in mid-August has been aided by central banks pumping money into financial markets to keep them operating smoothly through the credit squeeze, with investors keen to put those funds to use.

The flare-up in political tension between Turkey and Kurdish rebels in northern Iraq has supported gains as traders fear it may stem the flow of Iraq's sporadic northern oil exports, or eventually disrupt broader Middle East shipments.

Iraq is anticipating only limited Turkish air strikes on separatists, its foreign minister told Reuters on Thursday, the day after Turkey's parliament gave its military the green light to hunt members of the Kurdish Workers Party.

Oil's climb toward an inflation-adjusted peak above $100 has alarmed OPEC, which may call for an early formal meeting to discuss a second output increase as many analysts said its September agreement to raise production by 500,000 barrels a day from November was proving insufficient to put a brake on prices.

Although U.S. oil stocks rose last week, crude inventories stand about 4 percent below a year ago, while gasoline and distillate stocks are about 7 percent below last year, according to the latest government data.

Stockpiles of crude at Cushing, Oklahoma, the delivery point for oil traded on the New York Mercantile Exchange, were nearly a fifth below last year.

Oil has averaged just over $67 a barrel this year, but is now nearing the inflation-adjusted monthly average high of $101.70 hit in April 1980, a year after the Iranian revolution.

wonder if people are shoring up reserve or is it something else....

interesting read on oil stuff below :
http://www.wtrg.com/prices.htm
http://stockmarketbeat.com/blog1/2006/09/21/oil-vs-dow-does-2006-rhyme-with-1987/

read.

Offline zuoom

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S'pore markets suffer biggest one-day loss in 2 months
« Reply #7 on: October 20, 2007, 01:02:35 AM »
Hong Kong's closure and 20th anniversary of Oct 1987 crash weigh on market sentiment.
By Goh Eng Yeow, Market Correspondent

Quote

THE Singapore stock market on Friday suffered its biggest one-day drop in almost two months, as memories of the October 1987 crash which occurred 20 years ago spooked market sentiment.

With Hong Kong closed for a public holiday, Singapore became the focus of the region-wide selldown as fund managers sought to lighten their portfolio in anticipation of weakness on Wall Street on Friday night.

The benchmark Straits Times Index fell 90.44 points to 3719.25 - its worst showing since August 21.

But overall market volume is lighter than usual, with only 1.67 billion shares worth $1.79 billion shares changing hands.

Dealers say that this would partly explain the market weakness on Friday. The dearth of buyers means that sellers would have to sell at lower prices in order to close their positions.

VIDEO
Asia bank shares down again
(0:58)
Topping the losers was the Singapore Exchange which plunged 80 cents to $14.90, as traders switched out of the stock, following the recent run-up on speculations that it was a takeover target.

Banks were also badly bruised. DBS Group fell 60 cents to $21.30, while United Overseas Bank dropped 50 cents to $22.10.

Giving its views on the Singapore market, foreign brokerage CLSA notes that STI is now trading at near all-time highs, driven by appreciation in prices in the property sector.

But it warns: 'In our view, this market re-rating combined with higher global growth risk and considerably narrowing of cost competitiveness to other financial centres poses near-term speed bumps to market momentum.'

STI ended 1.62% lower
SINGAPORE shares ended lower on Friday with the Straits Times Index down 61.71 points or 1.62 per cent to 3,747.98.

via : straitstimes.com

=======

just a speed bump perhaps? still raring to go? or would the engine run out of steam?

Offline zuoom

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2007, 12:35:29 AM »
ok, today's monday.

would it be a black monday? we will see in by end of the day.

Offline zuoom

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #9 on: October 22, 2007, 12:45:26 AM »
In the news
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via : http://news.google.com/?ned=us&topic=b


Offline zuoom

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #10 on: October 22, 2007, 01:24:43 AM »
"starto"

STI 3,642.15 Down 105.83 (2.82%)


Straits Times Index
STI   3,642.15    -105.83   (-2.82%)
SESDAQ   226.84    -6.71   (-2.87%)
BT-SRI   1,864.57    -49.62   (-2.59%)
KLSE Comp   1,370.17    -6.15   (-0.45%)
Nikkei 225   16,315.50    -498.87   (-2.97%)
Hang Seng   29,465.05    +166.34   (+0.57%)
Dow   13,522.02    -366.94   (-2.64%)
Nasdaq   2,725.16    -74.15   (-2.65%)

via : http://sg.finance.yahoo.com/

Offline zuoom

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2008, 01:02:58 AM »

Offline zuoom

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Re: [MSNBC] Could the Crash of '87 happen again?
« Reply #12 on: October 08, 2008, 05:29:21 AM »
the 508 points drop was reached recently. but it's no where as near as the 23% figure.

fear is here.

Offline zuoom

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Black October
« Reply #13 on: November 04, 2008, 08:57:33 AM »
Quote from: cuntzbuster;33479084
SINGAPORE, Nov 4 — Last month's market upheaval swept away S$16.4 billion (RM40 billion) in market value from Temasek Holdings’ portfolio of major investments in Singapore-listed companies alone.

Calculations, based on the shrunken market capitalisation of 12 companies Temasek has a significant stake in, show that the value of its investments fell 25.7 per cent between Sept 30 and Oct 31. Compared to the beginning of the year, the drop is 45.7 per cent, or S$40 billion.

Singapore’s stock market capitalisation plunged S$123.5 billion in the month of October.

Temasek saw a huge chunk of market value destroyed — on paper — from its 55 per cent stake in SingTel, which translated into S$7.1 billion getting sliced off its portfolio's value in the month of October. The value of its SingTel stake fell S$13.7 billion from Dec 31, 2007.

Its 29 per cent core interest in DBS Group meant that the bank contributed the second largest cut in value to Temasek's Singapore portfolio — S$2.4 billion over the course of last month. DBS had borne the brunt of the sell-off among the three local banking stocks in October, losing 34 per cent of its market cap.

Temasek's 54 per cent share in Singapore Airlines' market cap dipped S$2 billion in the month of October, and S$4 billion this year so far. Its other transportation and logistics investments saw market value shrink too. Temasek's stake in SMRT Corporation meant a loss in market value of S$360 million, while the value of its interest in Neptune Orient Lines fell by S$563 million.

Market cap fell for the three infrastructure, industrial and engineering stocks with Temasek interest too.

Temasek's share of ST Engineering, Sembcorp Industries and Keppel Corporation's market value losses last month came to S$584 million, S$726 million and S$1.1 billion respectively.

Technology stocks Chartered Semiconductor Manufacturing and STATS ChipPAC meant value cuts for Temasek of S$232 million and S$776 million respectively in October too. Its comparatively smaller 15 per cent stake in Fraser and Neave still led to a loss in value of S$171 million last month.

CapitaLand was not hit as badly in October, so Temasek's 40 per cent interest in it led to a loss of S$237 million, though for the year so far, the property developer has taken S$3.8 billion off Temasek's portfolio.

Geographically, Singapore accounts for about a third of Temasek's net portfolio value.

It maintains a 12 per cent portfolio exposure to Asean countries, 22 per cent to North Asia, 23 per cent to the OECD economies, and a 7 per cent exposure to emerging South Asian economies such as India and Pakistan. — Business Times Singapore

via : http://forums.hardwarezone.com.sg/showthread.php?t=2151118

Offline zuoom

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Fear
« Reply #14 on: September 09, 2009, 01:20:41 AM »
the 508 points drop was reached recently. but it's no where as near as the 23% figure.

fear is here.

has fear left?


via : http://www.google.com/trends?q=fear

judging by the graph. it pike in the 1st Q of 2009. taper off for the rest with an indication to scoop up. (that's how i would read it. infer from the amount of news reference.)
« Last Edit: September 09, 2009, 01:25:43 AM by z.u.o.o.m »